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A week of Windows

By on October 09, 2003 (8:00:00 AM)

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- By <SLASH HREF="//linux.com/relocate.pl?id=d6ce25c2cc3b127d06ee7072e4e96563" ID="550b07898cb229ddc8f2f03ffd151cdd" TITLE="http://roblimo.com" TYPE="LINK">Robin 'Roblimo' Miller</SLASH> -
We see dozens of 'Migrating from Windows to Linux' stories that talk about features Windows users miss when they switch, but we rarely see articles about moving from Linux to Windows, and what kind of pain that can cause. I hadn't used Windows for more than an hour or two at a time since 1998, so I decided I was as qualified as anyone else to write about moving from desktop Linux to desktop Windows. I have now used Windows for an entire week. This story marks the end of that week, and I'm glad it's over.


First, a question: What's up with all this "Ctrl C" and Ctrl V" copy/paste stuff? In almost all Linux programs, when I want to copy a block of text (or a graphic or whatever) I just highlight the original, then click both mouse buttons (or the middle button if I have a 3-button mouse) where I want to paste it. This is fast, easy, and takes little hand motion on my laptop keyboard. All this Ctrl key action slows me down. I don't know about the rest of the world, but I need to work quickly if I want to earn a living, and I don't see why Windows wants me to go through all those extra hand motions just to paste a URL into a story. Geh.

Anyway, on with the article.

I've happily used SuSE 8.2 since it first came out. My Windows testbed is XP Pro, which came with my Toshiba Satellite laptop and has sat unused on its hard drive for many months.

The first thing that happened after I fired up Windows XP is that it virtually ordered me to download a series of patches. I did so, but it wasn't like a SuSE update where you see every patch available and can say "yes" or "no" to each one if you like. The Windows update process told me nothing except that it was happening, and that I needed to reboot when it was over. A Windows-using friend said, "Yes, that's the way it works, and if you don't do the updates your computer keeps annoying you, so you have to do them even if they take hours like they sometimes do."

Okay.

This update -- whatever it was -- took just under an hour to download and install. Then I started to set up some software.

It seems Windows, unlike most commercial Linux distributions, doesn't come with office and other productivity software. You need to buy or otherwise obtain and install your own. Luckily I had a StarOffice CD around that had both the Linux and Windows versions on it, so I slapped that CD in the drive and had myself an office suite in just a few minutes. The installation process was neither harder nor easier than in Linux (except for the fact that most Linux distribution CDs include either StarOffice or Openffice so you don't need to go through this procedure at all), so this was not a problem.

StarOffice seems to work just about the same in Windows as in Linux. My learning curve was zero. Good.

Next I decided to install an IRC program. I'm a longtime XChat user in Linux, but I noticed that the Windows version of this fine program was shown as 'experimental' on the XChat site, and that most Windows users I know use mIRC, so I decided to be mainstream and run mIRC.

Once again, the software download and install was as easy as I've come to expect from a modern Linux distribution. Indeed, it was slightly faster since I didn't need to type in my root password to make the installation happen, but I think this lack of security for software installation may be one of the causes of the hidden spyware problems I keep reading about Windows users having, so I'm not sure saving the work of typing "***********" into a little box when you want to install or update a program is worth the security risk it causes.

First really rude surprise: mIRC costs $20. It isn't free like XChat. Supposedly you get a free 30 day trial, but my copy started blinking "your evaluation time is up" each time I started it after the 3rd day. Apparently the mIRC developers have a slight math problem. Not only that, I found the program much harder to use and less intuitive than XChat. Even after a week, I still haven't figured out how to add a new network to it easily, a function that is simple as pie in XChat.

Given a choice, I'd rather pay for XChat than for mIRC. It's better software. (Note to XChat developer Peter Zelezny: If you're reading this, and you want me to send you $20, just say the word. Or I'll buy you a beer or 5 at the next conference we both attend. Either one is fine with me.)

Four awful hours with Microsoft Internet Explorer

One program that does come with Windows XP Pro is a Web browser called 'Microsoft Internet Explorer.' I have heard that over 90% of all Web-connected people in the world use this browser, but I find this hard to believe. It doesn't have the tabbed browser feature that makes work-related research (and pleasure reading) such a pleasure in Mozilla, Opera, and other modern browsers.

Those of you who haven't tried this Explorer thing probably think I'm lying about this, but I'm not. Seriously, your only choices when you open a new page in Explorer are to either replace the page you're looking at or to open a new browser window. You can't line up a whole row of pages from Salon or NewsForge or Slashdot or whatever publication you read daily and click from one to the other, starting with the one that loaded first and moving on to new pages as they load and display.

Those Microsoft people need to get on the stick with Explorer. This lack of tabbed browsing is simply not acceptable. There is no good excuse in this day and age for distributing a browser that doesn't have this fine feature. Explorer simply won't be ready for the desktop until it has it.

Another problem I noticed with Explorer is something called "popup ads." Apparently a lot of Web sites have these things and something related called "popunders" that also open browser windows you don't ask to open. Apparently many Explorer users dislike this feature so much that they are willing to pay for software to shut it off. Why people will pay to have Explorer's popup feature shut off instead of simply downloading free Mozilla and clicking on a couple of little boxes to decide what they will allow Web servers to do to their browser windows escapes me. Mozilla is just as easy to install on Windows as it is on Linux (and once again, in the Windows version no 'root' password is needed).

Any Windows user who goes on using Explorer after he or she learns that Mozilla is available is a masochist who should seek immediate psychiatric help -- in my non-medical opinion, anyway.

My experiment with Microsoft Internet Explorer ended after about 4 hours, including the time it took to download Mozilla. I promised to try Windows for a whole week, not to torture myself with a bad browser, and since I work on the Internet all day long, the browser is my single most critical application. I'm sorry, someone else is going to have to furnish a more complete review of this Explorer thing. I don't have any more time (or heart) to mess with it.

I even tried Outlook Express

This experiment lasted less than 1/2 hour. I downloaded 2 'passes' worth of email and had to wade through over 200 spams to read 3 useful emails. I (heart) Mozilla's Bayesian spam filters. I will no longer use an email program that doesn't have fast, automatic, easy-to-use spam filtering.

Forget the endless worm and virus problems that plague Outlook and Outlook Express. While they're enough in and of themselves to turn any sane person away from this pair of email programs, the spam thing makes them totally and completely useless. Yes, I know there are lots of server tricks I could use (and lots of proprietary spam blocker programs I could buy), but again the question is, "Why bother when Mozilla is free and does just what I need?"

I'm sure there's an answer to this question, and it's probably, "Because my moron boss runs Microsoft Exchange servers and we have to use Outlook with them." Fine. But just because your boss is a moron doesn't mean you need to be one at home. Unless you have a tiny penis and/or breasts, want to look at lots of porn, need a new mortgage to finance Viagra purchases, and love to help Nigerians (and others) con you out of your hard-earned, you should get rid of Outlook or Outlook Express NOW and get a sensible email program, hopefully one like Mozilla that has easy-to-configure spam filtering built in.

Please don't argue with me about this. I don't get paid a percentage for each (free) Mozilla download this article generates. I'm telling you to dump Outlook for your own good. Really.

Other software

My computer use is pretty boring. I do research on the Internet, I type notes from phone interviews, I sometimes log IRC or IM chats and use them as the basis for stories, I listen to a little (legal) online music, I write stories and post them here on NewsForge or wherever, and I slap together a simple Web page or two now and then. I usually have a book project going in the background, but StarOffice handles that sort of thing just fine. I run maybe 5 or 6 spreadsheets a month and make maybe 5 or 6 new slide presentations per year, but these, too, are StarOffice tasks no matter what operating system I use.

I use AIM (or GAIM). Once again, not enough difference between Windows or Linux to be worth noting.

My copy of Windows XP Pro seems to have a program included with it called 'Windows Messenger' that, as far as I can tell, is some sort of ad delivery mechanism. I haven't figured out how to turn it off. It is very annoying. Linux doesn't have anything like this program, or if it does I've never installed or used it. In any case, I lived for many years without being bombarded by 'Windows Messenger' ads that pop up in the middle of whatever I'm trying to do, and I won't miss them when I go back to Linux.

I'm writing this story in a decent little free (as in beer) Windows-only text/HTML editor called NoteTab Light. Back when I dropped Windows in favor of Linux, this was the Windows program I missed most. Now Bluefish is better than NoteTab -- and Bluefish isn't available for Windows.

The Gimp, StarOffice, and Xpaint handle my simple graphics needs. Recent versions of StarOffice even make business card, newslatter, and letterhead 'office' printing layouts easy, which eliminates my once-felt need for Windows-only PrintMaster.

I am not a computer game person, so the existence (or lack) of particular game titles in a particular operating system does not affect me at all.

Basically, I want my computer to be a simple, rapid, and reliable work tool. Windows does a lot of little things that either slow me down (like the Ctrl C/Ctrl V thing) or bollix me. The bollixers apparently don't just affect me. Even PC Magazine columnist John Dvorak, as Windows-locked a person as you will find, sees the same problems I'm having after (now) 2 rounds of XP patches.

I am glad I am not John Dvorak. He is apparently stuck with Windows for life. For me, it's only a one-week problem.

Some nice things about Windows XP

I haven't had XP Pro crash on me all week in the old 'blue screen of death sense,' which is a big improvement over Windows 98, although I've had some of the slowdowns and 'idle time' problems Dvorak mentions.

I suppose, if I needed (and wanted to pay for) hundreds of little specialty programs to do hundreds of special little things, I would like Windows more than I do. I would like to have a better 'simple' graphics manipulation program for Linux than any I've tried so far. There are several commercial ones coming soon, and I'm eager to try them. I would like to see a Linux version of Paint Shop Pro, but I doubt that it's going to happen soon. And right now, there isn't anything truly equivalent in Linux to Quark or Photoshop. But I see plenty of Linux development activity in the graphics software area (both commercial and free), so this complaint won't last. But right now it's a real factor for Windows users considering a total switch to Linux.

There is no doubt about the fact that Windows has more applications available for it than Linux does. You can debate the value of all those applications forever without coming to any sane conclusion. I'm generally satisfied with what's available to me in Linux, but I recognize that others may not be, any more than they would be satisfied driving an old but reliable pickup truck instead of a low-slung, zoomy sports car with all kinds of fancy power accessories.

If you are as locked to Windows as poor Dvorak for some reason, and you are still running 95, 95 or ME, you should get XP. It's much better than previous versions. In fact, it seems nearly as reliable as Linux.

Silly little Linux features I've missed

The bottom panel on my KDE desktop is filled with icons for my 'daily use' applications. No matter how covered my screen is with applications windows (and it is almost always fully covered), I can click on a panel icon and open a new app. I haven't figured out how to put app icons on the Windows bottom panel. I don't even know if it can be done. Perhaps it can only be done by smart Windows geeks, but not by simple-minded Linux people like me.

When I want to find out the day and date, or check a date a few months ahead, I'm used to clicking on my little KDE clock and having a calendar pop up for me. I can't seem to do this in Windows, even though I've tried. Again, this may be a feature only super-geeks can can use in Windows that is hidden from us ordinary desktop people.

This Windows thing about needing special drivers for every bit of hardware is irksome. Setting up a wireless network card in Windows is tedious compared to Linux, where it's a 'click-click-click and you're done' thing. And in Windows, if I plug in my Linksys PCMCIA card instead of my SMC one by mistake, nada. In Linux either one will work (since I have models that have similar chipsets). In general, I find it easier to add or remove hardware pieces or peripherals in Linux than it seems to be in Windows.

(I will note here that I make sure that all hardware I buy is Linux-compatible. Some Windows users seem to think this is a big deal, but it's no harder than making sure you don't try to use a Mac-only board in a Windows computer. Common sense!)

Sympathy for Windows users scared of switching

One thing I've gotten out of this last week is a new appreciation for Windows users' fears of switching from their familiar proprietary applications to new open source ones, let alone to Linux itself.

We humans are creatures of habit. We're used to having action 'A' happen when we click button 'B' or type command 'C.' When we type command 'C' and action 'D' happens instead of 'A' like we expected, we need to pause and think for a moment.

Those moments add up, and habits take a while to break.

After a full week of Windows use, for instance, I still try to simply highlight and click to copy URLs and bits of text instead of going through the Ctrl key routine. I'm sure desktop Windows users have many similar, small habits they need to break when they switch to Linux.

All I can say to people in the process of moving from Windows to Linux and struggling to change their near-instinctive finger motion patterns is, "At least you're going from Windows to Linux, not the other way around."

And to those poor souls who must use Windows forever, either for job reasons or because there is a Windows app they simply must have that isn't available for Linux and won't work through either Wine or Win4Lin, all I can really say is, "I feel your pain."

Believe me, after this week, I truly do.

My heart goes out to Windows, Outlook, and Explorer users all over the world, and I would like all Linux users to please start showing our poor, Microsoft-locked friends and coworkers as much sympathy as possible.

Lord knows, they deserve it.

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on A week of Windows

Note: Comments are owned by the poster. We are not responsible for their content.

Other OSes

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 09, 2003 08:11 PM
This should be filed under Humour, chortle chortle. Made me giggle anyway.

I am one of those people who is stuck working on Windows. It's not that bad when you get used to it. I do miss tabbed browsing at work however (I too run SuSE 8.2 at home).

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Re:Other OSes

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 09, 2003 09:34 PM
You realize Mozilla makes a client for Windows and you can do Tab browsing with that version. The only thing that gets me is more and more stuff is only working with Internet Explorer.

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Re:Other OSes

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 09, 2003 09:58 PM
I've found the newer versions of Mozilla have worked with every "IE-only" page I've tried to go to. It used to be I used IE for certain pages that Mozilla couldn't handle, but that changed when I upgraded to Mozilla 1.4.
I even use Mozilla over IE at work now. But Mozilla can't handle ActiveX controls, which is a Good Thing IMHO.

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Re:Other OSes

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 10, 2003 07:43 AM
In the rare event that I do find a page that displays incorrectly in Mozilla, it's normally because the developer, being the narrow-minded Microsoftie that he was, thought that it would be okay to design exclusively for Internet Explorer. Since IE is not always standards-compliant (while Mozilla is), you get little errors with padding and borders for DIVs and TABLEs. It's annoying, but it rarely is so much of a problem that I cannot see the page at all.

By the way, about the Quick Launch thing, you can drag shortcuts directly from your desktop, start menu, or another folder into the Quick Launch bar to add them rather than going to C:\Documents and Settings....

I also run a dual-boot Linux system (RedHat 9 and Windows XP Home), and while I used RedHat constantly for a while, I could never get used to it. The claim that Linux is crash-free is obviously not true, because I've crashed it several times already and it can be more sluggish than Windows. Perhaps Linux doesn't crash if you use it for a single purpose, such as a server, but it certainly does if you're a power user who needs a desktop OS, development server, and multimedia apps all at the same time.

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nvidia drivers?

Posted by: jms on October 10, 2003 02:23 PM
i bet it was those nvidia drivers.

and the neat thing about linux is, it's almost never _ever_ really gone. even if your X is borken, log in via ssh and wham! you're good. if that doesn't work, do the alt+sysreq+keys (google for the help) and you can unmount drives and basically fix stuff while the system is otherwise unresponsive. Anyways. hope that helps...linux, for me, does crash once in a while, but usually it's a) recoverable via sysreq and b) nvidia's fault for crappy drivers.

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Re:nvidia drivers?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 11, 2003 05:23 AM
I get that, the X server hangs with this shitty gforce (as it slams into wall when I've had enough of it ?) video card. I can still remote access the machine, and run applications (gui by vnc on remote machine), so the good old kernel is still running. Note *NOT* crashed.I have several mates with gforce video cards, and they ALL have problems. At least Linux has the common decency to handle it as gracefully as possible.

Now the good old voodoo 3000 I have in my old box has *never* given any problems at all.

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Re:Other OSes

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 09, 2003 10:30 PM
Get Avant Browser if you want IE tabbed browsing. It's pretty good, what I was using before I started using Firebird.

But using Mozilla/Firebird and the software associated with it (ie Thunderbird) is better. For if you use them in Windows and Linux, the software is nearly exactly the same, and importing/exporting to one another is painless. I dual boot, so this is an advantage.

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Re:Other OSes

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 10, 2003 03:58 AM
ever heard of mozilla for windows?

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Re:Other OSes

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 11, 2003 01:13 AM
Ever hear of ActiveX controls? Some of us folks out there need to use sites that only work with IE. Try to think beyond your regular routine of browsing several geek sites and realize that some people actually do business on the computer and are dependent on vendors who are unwilling or locked into Windows.

Just a thought.

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Re:Other OSes

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 11, 2003 06:07 AM
So this raises a question of why MicroSoft REFUSE's to become compatible with the real world. Also ironic that both the MAC OS and MicroSoft Windows were both born based on BSD code. W3.1 is just a crummy knock-off of where Billy started, with Apple. Why does Microsoft continue to back a bad position like using HTML in E-Mail is beyond me, and it isn't like the problems with Outlook/Outlook Express are new.


    Microsoft is triing to powerplay a monopoly run, by making browsers like Opera not compatible with sites like HotMail, is not playing well with others. ALSO, lets remember that Microsoft could NOT beat " NCSA Mosaic " in the real world, so they swalloded them whole instead. Also there is the ongoing battle between MS and SUN, where they could not kill JAVA, and not afford to buy SUN, so they made MSJAVA instead.


  I don't like MS or Hitler, both being ^%&*$#$! Dictators

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Re:Other OSes

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on November 25, 2003 01:15 AM
Mozilla can use ActiveX:

http://www.iol.ie/~locka/mozilla/mozilla.htm

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Re(1):Other OSes

Posted by: Anonymous [ip: 212.23.248.76] on November 07, 2007 08:19 AM
actually... business is done with linux/unix. want a proof? just shut down every unix-based computer/server for one day and look what the world does look like. well... m$' time will soon be over! finally ;-)

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Re:Other OSes

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 10, 2003 11:18 AM
A good tabbed browser for windows (besides Mozilla and Opera) is Avant Browser. www.avantbrowser.com

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Firebird for Win

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 10, 2003 11:59 PM
I use the Firebird browser with Windows.
It is fast, stable and has tabbed browsing.
Try it!

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Re:Other OSes

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 11, 2003 12:38 AM

"This should be filed under Humour, chortle chortle. Made me giggle anyway."

That's true. It's certainly not any kind of review. More like a rant by a fan-boy, in fact.

In fact, it reminded me most of a slashdot troll.
I wouldn't be surprised to see it cut/paste in full to that very forum on a regular basis, in fact...

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Re:Other OSes

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 11, 2003 01:19 AM
I enjoy SlimBrowser. A 400K download that implements tabbed browsing and popup blockers for IE.

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This review

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 15, 2003 08:09 AM
This review is great, it is almost exactly like the reviews competant windows users write when they switch to Linux (complaints about features that are there and easy to use once you know them but they do not yet know how to use the clock/calander coment and creating icons on the quick lauch bar)) but highlights the problems with windows (explorer* and the unintuitive ways in which it works)

The point is that it is hard to learn to use another OS but it is better to switch to Linux than to windows because Linux is sensibally written so when you do learn to use it it is easy to learn to do more as well as taking less time to learn (when learning from scratch)

*please don't answer this with but you can get another browser. Opera and Mozilla are both available for windows but you are still forced to have explorer on your Hard drive (the only way to remove it completely is to make modifications to the windows shell which is sensible also called explorer in assembly language)

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you are gay

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 11, 2003 01:39 AM
wahhh! wahhh! i hate windows! wahhh! grow up.

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Re:you are gay

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 11, 2003 08:01 AM
waahh! waaah! I can't stand when people complain about the only os I am intelligent enough to use.

Try something else for a change. Most gnu/linux users have once used windows, and obviusly, most of them doesn't want to use it again, after using gnu/linux.

Though, most windows users have not use gnu/linux, and still we hear rants like this... Use it, THEN complain. And by using, I don't meen install mandrake and give it one hour. Give it a week, give it two weeks. If you have any problems with it, there are tons of people around that will help you. I have gotten a lot of help from gnu/linux users, but when I've been at channels like #windows etc, I've never been able to get anyone to help me or answer any of my questions. Windows community seems to be very much "every man for himself"...

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Re:Other OSes

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 11, 2003 11:55 AM
I'm not going to be as silly as the zealot who wrote this review and I won't coment on the petty issues that he talks about, though to put it simply there are very easy solutions which most people manage to deal with (E.g use Mozilla).

But I will coment about what he said on hardware support, personally I probably purchase 2 perhaps 3 new peices of hardware a year (More or less) which means that i need to install new hardware drivers 2-3 times a year a process which takes less than 5 minutes + a reboot (Sometimes) ontop of that out of all the hardware on my system the only things I need to use special drivers for on windows are my graphics card and printer (My mouse if I want a some of the silly logitech customization features) no big drama what is a big drama is when on linux I have to deal with poor hardware support or non-exsistent hardware support (Not the general case unless something say has windows only firmware (when I first tried linux I had to buy a new modem before I could use the internet (Thank god for ADSL now<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)) or when I have deal with mod-probe and kernel recompiles (Sory I've got better things todo with my time).

Also about windows messenger I've been using it for probably 2 years and never experienced the problems you experienced (Not one ad<nobr> <wbr></nobr>;)) or did you bother doing something with the free hotmail acount they provide you with? Personally I've found messeenger to be nicer than other IM clients I've used (Albiet abit bloated).

Lastly my advise to the author of the article, if he is finding Windows *THAT CHALLENGING* he should perhaps buy a book like Windows for Dumies like most people who are starting out with windows do.

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Re:Other OSes

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 12, 2003 06:39 PM
I'm one of the guys, that dual boot windows(10)% linux(90%). I'm a student of computer science. Here is my view on some of the problems.

First of all the hardware - driver problem you mentioned. This is rather the problem of the user, not a linux problem. I just bought a printer 2 days ago, before I got the printer I surfed the web, checking out which printers would satisfy my needs, I came up with a Canon or HP, then I checked wether there where linux drivers for those. Bingo HP had drivers developed by them canon had nothing, not even support for this new printer with cups. So now I knew what to get. The HP.

If you say you buy Hardware 2 or 3 times a year and you are not capable of chosing a piece of hardware that works with linux and windows, then you are either just lazy or dumb or I need to write a book buying hardware for dummies

Currently I run these components both with linux and windows, installing the drivers takes longer on windows, since all of the hardware is brandnew, means XP doesn't have drivers for them:

Athlon 3000+
120GB WD
512MB RAM
PCI WLAN Card 22Mbps
USB Printer HP
USB Scanner Microtek
3Megapixel Digital Camera Canon with USB
USB Webcam Philips
GeForce 4 Graphics Card
Network Card Realtek
Network Card SIS
DSL Modem

So if you look first you won't have a problem.

Okay now to some of my problems. When I first installed XP on this maschine, it wouldn't run stable at all. Crashes after a couple of minutes everytime I booted windows, I then put windows 2000 baqck on it. When SP1 for XP came out I tried it again, this time after installing XP it worked no crashes anymore.

Now to the programms, if I install Windows, then I need at least one day 8h to do it, to setup my mail programms IE connection etc. Downloading freeware firewalls, freeware antivirus software(I don't want to talk about the costs in case you buy commercial products) etc. which is absolutely neccessary, Blaster & Co greetz you. My Linux installation however is finished in 1h everything set up. Like you say I have better things to do then do install marathons.

So what does this mean, it means some people will always find an argument, that is none, they will allways show the negativ sides of each OS, some will always myke their OS the best.

I come along with both systems, they just required you to be open for new stuff and for changes, both systems are good, but the reason why I would favour linux over XP is, that XP is poduced by a company that wants to rule the world, that just cares about money, not about the security of the user(even if they propagate that, you call that marketing). With Linux I have the chance to see how computers work, see what programms really do, bend the system to my needs.

Finally I think the Author has a right to share his experience, I'm actually surprised he wasn't whining more, If I had be using linux all my life and never touched a windows os before I'd probably go nuts. Some windows users should remember that, If you have 3 years experience with windows and then give linux 2 days and whine about it afterwards, then you are just dumb. To do a real comparison you should have used both for the same time. I been using computers for 15 years and lots of years windows and linux, so I'd say I can do a real compare of the two systems guys I should once write an article pro and cons windows vs. linux, both have pros and cons.

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Re:Other OSes

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 12, 2003 11:15 PM
Personally I've now a triple BootSystem:

Windows 2000 (Shipped with My PC)

Windows XP Professional (Which I Bought afterwards)

Windows Server 2003, Entrprise Trial

I think I have installed till now almost every Windows version after Windows 3.1 until Windows Longhorn build 4029, which is still under development.

I use Windows XP as my native OS, the one in which I'm always booted, Windows 2000 as a Backup System (I easily break down things) and then a third OS, to play with.

Once, I decided to install Gentoo Linux 1.4 RC3 as third OS. I took me 3 days. 2 Days to have a Command-Line Os and another day to install KDE...

As I'm also a Computer Sciences student, I already knew what was linux Like, but it seems to be unmanagable. I only tried to install 10 to 15 applications and my disc was already a complete mess.

Let's talk a little about the hardware. During Installation I had to find out what the Horizontal and vertical resolutions of my screen are. I had never heard about that, but lukily I was able to find the documentation about my screen. That worked, but the whole thing booted up in a wrong resolution (The box to enter your username and password fell almost of my screen...)

During compilation I had to select a lot of stuff about my computer network card for example, which is an onboard card and I really don't care which brand it is. When installing Windows, I get automatically connected to my network, without having to open my case to look at the labels on my Hardware components...

Configuration of the network is another hell, it seemed. Lukily enough my network has a nice DHCP server (the default Windows DHCP server is more easy to set up than configuring 1 Linux Workstation). First i tried to give my PC a static IP, but after trying a few times, I gave up and set it to DHCP, which worked great.

Last week I installed the recently leaked Windows Longhorn build 4029, and gues what? You boot up from the CD, enter your license key, select the disk/partition on which you want to install Windows Longhorn 4029, and then you get a nice screen telling you that you can go having a cup of coffee. When I came bakc, half an hour later, Windows Longhorn 4029 was installed, and the only thing I had to install manually, were the drivers for my scanner, but I didn't even try get it working in Linux. As I also didn't try to get my shared printer working and lukily enough I connect through the Internet through another Windows PC, such that I didn't have to search for drivers for my ADSL modem...

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Re:Other OSes

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 15, 2003 08:22 AM
if you are a computer science student and it took you 3 days to install Linux either you have completely incompatable hardware or you are a complete idiot. I recently installed Red Hat 9 (after using an older distribution of SuSe) and it was installed faster and with less hassel than in XP with all of my hardware configured automatically unlike in windows which all the hardware was made for. despite hours of trying and calling tech support my WinTV card works in Linux (which the tech support people have never even heard of where it was configured automatically) and not in windows (which it and its drivers were designed for). The tech support people have had such trouble getting it to work they have told me to take it back to the shop as it must be damaged (I am on my third one and they are all the same and there is nothing wrong as they work fine in Linux). My experience is certainly that new distributions of Linux are easy to install (much easier than leaked Longhorn builds I have tried; although what would you expect?, if micro$oft can't make a decent install program by the time they start selling it how do you expect the leaked versions to work)

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Re:Other OSes

Posted by: Sam Leathers on October 13, 2003 08:39 AM
Before whining about linux, maybe you should pull your head out of your proverbial a$$. You are using gentoo that compiles software from scratch. Of course it will take days and days to compile. Gentoo != linux, it is a flavor of linux. (I am using gentoo right now, and love it to death, but it is not for everyone.) If you want a serious comparison, I have 2 suggestions. Try Xandros. It is a commercial distro based on Debian, that sets itself up without any problems. Even my Grandma installed, and uses it without problems (which prior to Xandros, she had only used windows). If you are a cheap bastard unwilling to pay, download knoppix or one of it's derivatives. (I use insert from http://www.insert.cd for fixing windows computers a lot) It is a complete OS on a CD, that detects all your hardware, and I have yet to come across a computer I couldn't get to work with it.

Please don't bother lecturing us on how hard and a pain linux is if you are unwilling to research before you try it. Gentoo is not made to set itself up for you, it is a power user distribution, and you my friend are not a power user.

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Re:Other OSes

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on November 11, 2003 10:16 AM
Pardon? Some (the majority) linux distros don't care about the security of the user either! When I set up a "secure system" I'd use Open-/FreeBSD with (x)inetd disabled, sendmail thrown out (replaced by postfix/qmail), bind thrown out (replaced by djbdns). IMO there're to much daemons enabled (and/or the wrong daemons delivered with the base systems) by default on most open-source UNIX-alikes.

And: A setup of a basic (secure) FreeBSD (server) system at my place takes 2 or more days, because I actually hate binary distributed software (precompiled for i386 or whatever). The first thing I do after the most basic installation is to cvsup the source tree, modify make.conf for my needs (I like software being optimized "-O2 -march=MY-PROCESSOR"...) and rebuild the entire system with a custom kernel for my exact needs and my hardware. Unfortunatley I don't have that choice on windows. so be it - I wouldn't choose windows as server-OS anyway.

When it comes to desktop capabilities I miss very much of windows - I have to admit that I prefer Gnome over KDE, because of the Qt license involved at KDE (if I want an open source system, I want it open-sourced as much as possible) slightly pisses me off (maybe that license stuff has changed in the meantime, anyway it brought me to gnome earlier, where I'd prefer to stay).

What I'm missing on Gnome is:
- The windows-quicklaunch pendant of Mozilla.
(startup time without quicklaunch of mozilla is a shame on either system!)
- Unified shortcuts (Like Alt+F4 for closing any windows app - on gnome it's sometimes Ctrl+Q, Ctrl+X or whatever the programmer had chosen)
- A good Editor like Ultra Edit (well there are loads of editors - some might say and as purist as I am I should use vi) but I actually didn't find an editor with compareable functionality and speed of Ultraedit on Windows - I tried gedit, glimmer, moleskine, and so on but basically the all suck compared to Ultraedit.
- Support for my Logitech 4-button Wheel-Mouse (e.g. a tiny gui program that spits out xmodmap lines to get the doubleclick mapped to the damn thumb-button)

So I (being student of cs, too) for my part (having used Windows/Linux and FreeBSD for some years) must say that the UNIX-alike OSS systems do very well and stable on the server side but don't satisfy my needs on the client side.

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Re:Other OSes

Posted by: kkarnafel on October 21, 2003 08:06 AM
Forgot to mention with Windows update you can select or deselect what you want to install. You don't have to install every patch.

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Re:Other OSes

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on November 14, 2003 01:46 AM
I don't think he was referring to MSN Messinger but the windows messinger service. I too have had ads popup and have seen articles from others complainging about it. Had to disable the service.

Windows update allows you to deselect and select what you want to install but does not say what is actually in the updates, so how do you know?

Thought the article was an amusing turnabout.

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Same Old Stuff

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 09, 2003 08:19 PM
You can tell what kind of article this is going to be by just reading the first paragraph.

The author actually complains because Windows allows a user to use Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V to copy and paste text. It's not as if that is the only way. I'm sure there are plenty of people who find this to be the quickest way to copy and paste text.

It's this kind of blathering about such a petty issue that makes it hard to take this kind of article seriously. It brings the word 'zealot' to mind.

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Re:Same Old Stuff

Posted by: roblimo on October 09, 2003 08:50 PM
This is the kind of 'blathering about such a petty issue' I hear over and over from people who try Linux and say, "Oh, I can't use this instead of Windows because it doesn't do [something just as petty]."

To many users these issues are not petty, and most of these 'issues' are the result of habits we build up by using *any* operating system or favored application for a long period of time and have nothing to do with how well the operating system or software works.

While no-name here tells me there are other ways to copy/paste in Windows, they certainly aren't anything a new user is going to figure out without help. Like Linux, Windows has many little tricks experienced users know that make life easier.

And this article wasn't meant to be taken too seriously. I have read too many, "My operating system is better than yours, nyah, nyah," articles over the years to take *any* of them very seriously, even ones I write myself.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:)

- Robin

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Re:Same Old Stuff

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 09, 2003 09:16 PM
This is No-Name replying. My cowardly ways have forced me to go by the moniker Anonymous Reader. I'm usually just a lurker anyway.

I understand that this kind of thing goes both ways. Most people don't like change, and when someone builds up these kinds of OS and application-specific habits over time, you're going to have a hard time convincing him or her to make any kind of switch no matter how much easier or superior your OS or application is.

I have to disagree with you on the other ways of copying and pasting in Windows being little tricks that experienced users pick up on. I find it to be the other way around. Most people I support don't have a clue about Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V for copying and pasting. If they know how to copy and paste at all, they use the Edit menu. Most don't even know about right-clicking to copy and paste. However, this could just be because of the area I'm in. My little sect doesn't represent a large portion of the users out there.

Finally, I agree that this article shouldn't be taken too seriously, and I'm trying not to. It just boiled down to "My operating system is better than yours, nyah, nyah" like you stated, so I got a little annoyed. After I posted, I realized I was taking it too seriously and went back to make sure this article wasn't filed under Humor.

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Re:Same Old Stuff

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 11, 2003 12:47 AM
Actually In my experience as well most windows users don't know/want to use the keyboard in windows to copy/cut/paste anything... Heck recently I tried teaching my mom how to work a computer (she refused to learn for the last 15 years). And the first way she figured out how to copy/paste things was with the right mouse buttons popup menu. In fact she stil doesn't understand how to use keyboard shortcuts.

I should mention I'm personnally partial to ctl+ commands myself preffering to do eveythign with a keyboard unless I have to use the mouse...

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Middle button

Posted by: Joseph Colton on October 09, 2003 09:56 PM
I know that not being able to paste with the middle button was the thing that bothered me the most about StarOffice 5.2 when it was originally released for Linux. The second was the fact that it came as a full desktop package that did not allow you to seperate it and run the Writer application alone.

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Re:Middle button

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 10, 2003 07:59 AM
Please try to do the following in excel, and in SO 5.2:-

create 2 columns of date, numbers, and make sure they're not in any order.

now try plotting them as an X-Y plot. excel will bomb and give you a bar chart without giving ANY indication of the problem. SO 5.2 will tell you it needs to sort the x-axis, and after this plots ok. excel also does it if you sort the x-axis.

And excel is the *professional* app here ? I think not ! Give me my free Star Office - PLEASE. It maybe a little ungainly, but who cares ? It gives me an alternative !

That's the way I look at it !

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Unfamiliarity with shortcuts goes both ways

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 11, 2003 12:42 AM
As a longtime Windows user and occasional Linux user, I had no idea I could copy and paste in Linux just by clicking until I read your article.

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Re:Same Old Stuff

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 11, 2003 01:33 AM
The problem is that those people that won't use Linux for whatever petty reason are genuine. You come off here as contrived. Many of your comments are just plain wrong.

For instance, double clicking on the clock *DOES* in fact bring up a clock/calender in every version of windows that has a taskbar.

You also seem to forget that lots of Linux email programs don't have bayesian spam filters and lots of Linux browsers don't have tabs, likewise lots of windows programs do have those things.

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Re:Same Old Stuff

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 11, 2003 02:13 AM
Double-clicking on the clock in Windows brings up the dialog to change the date and time for Windows. This is not the same as the calendar displayed within KDE which appears with a single-click. While they may be used for the same ends, they are not the same and are not accessed the same.

Lots of linux email programs don't have bayesian filters, but some do. Outlook Express doesn't, which is what the article said. Mozilla does, which is available for Windows, which is what the article said.

IE doesn't have tabbed browsing. Which is what the article said. Mozilla (and Konqueror and Opera) does, which is what the article said. Mozilla is available for Windows (as well as Opera) which is what the article said.

The difference that you're missing, I think, is that most commercial distros for Linux include Mozilla, Konqueror, OpenOffice, and so on, whereas Windows does not. Is that so hard?

Assuming what the article's author seems to forget smacks of 'zealot', especially when reading more carefully can remove the need to assume.

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Re:Same Old Stuff

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 11, 2003 05:25 AM
i double click on the clock in gnome and it doesn't bring up a calendar. what am i to do? I know - i'll draw the conclusion that linux sux.

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Re:Same Old Stuff

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 11, 2003 05:39 AM
This works for me with gnome from rh 8.

It's just your version that sux!<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:-)

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Re:Same Old Stuff

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 11, 2003 07:39 AM
I disagree.

The author made most of his criticisms based upon the business model, not functionality.

Yes, Windows is based around a single vendor that is writing that code for profit. Of course they aren’t going to put Mozilla or anything on that does not enhance the bottom line.

The author knew most of the issues he complained about before he wrote the article. If he didn’t, he should have. 90% of the story was tripe.

A good article would have had at least a few of these comparisons:

* Installation and setup
* Upgrades
* Boot times
* Speed (both actual and perceived)
* Functionality differences (like the copy and paste)
* Integration between applications
* Compare same software on both platforms
* Then compare the overall Linux distro with Windows

I say 90% of the story is tripe because I can find two distros of Linux and lodge many of the same complaints.

The author wasn’t fair or balanced. He had an axe to grind and tried to play it off as journalism.

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Re:Same Old Stuff

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 14, 2003 01:58 PM
Its kind of a sarcastic tone in the article. Dont take it so seriously.

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Re:Same Old Stuff

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 11, 2003 02:30 AM
This is the kind of 'blathering about such a petty issue' I hear over and over from people who try Linux and say, "Oh, I can't use this instead of Windows because it doesn't do [something just as petty]."

The difference being, those other people don't run a newssite, you biased fucking hack.

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Re:Same Old Stuff

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 13, 2003 03:05 PM
Oh dear...you DO take life seriously, don't you? The article is more a satire on the usual non-Linux user reviews of Linux distros than anything else...

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Re:Same Old Stuff

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 11, 2003 03:41 AM
The person who wrote this is a typical egg head, who will never understand the conveniences that the product as a whole offers. While you cant compile your own version, and it does some installs without your exact knowledge, this is because 99.9% of the population wants this.

Get over it. MSFT is here to stay, has some decent products that operate on the whole very well.

Another thing, is that because the other products are less mainstream they do not have all their negative points pointed out in the way that fanatics do.

This discussion is like trying to tell Israel and Pallestine to get together and prey! - it will never happen

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Re:Same Old Stuff

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 12, 2003 12:57 AM
"The person who wrote this is a typical egg head, who will never understand the conveniences that the product as a whole offers. While you cant compile your own version, and it does some installs without your exact knowledge, this is because 99.9% of the population wants this."


99.9% of people want an OS that reports everything you do to Micro$haft, do they?

99.9% of people want an OS that has huge numbers of unpatched security holes?

99.9% of people want to have how they use their computers dictated to them by Bill Gates?

99.9% of people want an OS that is constantly the target of virus writers, script-kiddies and DoS attacks?

I don't think so. I would love for you to provide sources for your 99.9 statistics, unless of course, you conjured them out of thin air.

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Re:Same Old Stuff

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 13, 2003 07:23 PM
yes

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keyboard shortcuts?

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 14, 2003 02:43 AM
I use CTRL-C, CTRL-V in linux too<nobr> <wbr></nobr>...
I also use the mouse, but I rememver that it won't work in windows...

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Ctrl+V for paste-over...

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 14, 2003 11:48 AM
There is a use for Ctrl+V which can't (AFAIK) be done with X's mouse selection clipboard: paste clipboard text over selected text.

For that matter, I find such functions are maddeningly inconsistent in X, what with various widget sets acting slightly different. Even in recent distros, I've had trouble getting text between mozilla, nedit, xterm, etc., in wmaker.

I've been a loyal Linux user since 1995, and ditched Windoze completely around '97. But it has not been easy, and Ctrl+C/V has been a perennial bugbear. Another one is getting Chinese input to work without having to switch my entire GUI, menus and all, into Chinese mode.

For the most part, I agree completely with everything Roblimo wrote. But Ctrl+C/V is not something I consider a "weakness" of Windoze.

--jrd

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oh poppycock

Posted by: gus3 on October 09, 2003 08:57 PM
That complaint is as legitimate as any that anyone could make. In most modern X applications, there are three ways (maybe 4) to paste selected text:
  • Middle-click

  • Right-click, then Paste on a context menu

  • Ctrl-V, just like the article

  • Paste from the Edit menu

The problem is that Microsoft documentation tends to present the <A HREF="http://ei.cs.vt.edu/~cs5724/g1/" TITLE="vt.edu">most costly option</a vt.edu> first (Paste from the Edit menu), and this is the one that many end-users wind up using all the time. Some will see the "Ctrl-V" on the Paste option, get the hint, and use it... but when they have to do several cuts and pastes in succession, they go into "mouse-only" mode, and go back to using the menu bar.

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Re:oh poppycock

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 10, 2003 12:16 AM
And my favorites:

  Shift-Insert to paste

  Shift-Del to cut

  Ctrl-Insert to copy

(this is the "old" way of doing things)

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Re:oh poppycock

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 10, 2003 01:37 AM
It isn't the paste choices that are awkward for X users, it is the fact that you have to do something to select the region besides highlighting it. In X the mouse drag to select is all you need; there is no extra 'copy' step. There is a trade-off for this in that you can't subsequently highlight stuff to be replaced by the pasted text - you have to remove it separately.

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Re:oh poppycock

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 11, 2003 12:48 AM

It's just a different way of working.
I use both a lot, and to be honest, I prefer the Windows way, just because I often highlight stuff for reasons other than copy/paste, and in Unix, this loses the current clip in the clipboard buffer.

IMHO, Clipboard support in general is far superior on Windows - it does a lot of funky stuff regarding rich media types that don't work properly/at all under current unix implementations...

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Re:oh poppycock

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 11, 2003 11:40 AM
I agree. It seems basic to me, supporting the clipboard for just about any kind of object, from a string to a directory. Ah, if only linux were so easy...:)
Seriously, the ability to select a folder or file, copy it to the clipboard, navigate to a different folder and simple paste, never using the keyboard, and doing this for pictures, text, whatever, has certainly spoiled me. Windows is so complete it spoils you. Then you go use a heathen *nix.

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Re:oh poppycock

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on November 25, 2003 01:36 AM
You can do this in any high quality file manager like Konqueror, ROX, or Nautilus

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Re:oh poppycock

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 11, 2003 07:06 PM
Wrong. The X clipboard support everything. It's just that the applications don't support it.

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Re:oh poppycock

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 10, 2003 09:57 AM
Give me a break the only one that isnt in windows is middle click but then again if u want to move text u just double click the word and drag it face it 90% of the linux items taht are identified were designed on a windows paid applciation and ported to linux to make it more appetising to get windows users to switch. True windows users will stick with windows sure linux is a nice toy and great for there network jobs but even windows is taking over as per the last check on server sales and website hosting 2k3 even is taking over.

Sorry guys but opensource has its pluses but ill be sticking with xp and 2k3 till longhorn is out. I'm sick of people trying to copy MS's os's *coug cough* "start menu" - kde menu... let me say this if you want to make an OS worthy of taking over start to INNOVATE instead of DUPLICATING.

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Re:oh poppycock

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 10, 2003 11:59 AM
MS didn't innovate anything with windows. They took what Mac and UNIX CDE had been doing all along and combined the superficial elements of them together. Mac got the idea from Xerox incidently.

MS didn't even invent bloatware, although you would think they did with the footprint that XP takes on your hard drive.

MS didn't invent viruses either, but they certainly made it easier for virus makers to make them.

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Re:oh poppycock

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 11, 2003 12:55 AM

You do realize that taking existing ideas and combining them IS innovation, right?

"Standing on the shoulders of Giants", and all that.

Xerox invented the WIMP-style environment, but what Xerox had circa '79 is NOTHING like today's desktop.

Claiming that XP is a ripoff in that sense is like claiming an '04 Mustand is a ripoff of the Ford Model T.

Of course, a default RedHat install takes up a lot more disk space than an XP install...

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Re:oh poppycock

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 11, 2003 03:45 AM
yeah, but with red hat standard install you get a full office suite, full software development kit, industrial strength server and web server software... etc...

a full install of windows gets you a 1 gig installation, a buggy non standardised browser (doesn't even fully support css 1) a dangerous e-mail client, a choice of over 60,000 viruses and little else except a "great" feature that re-boots the machine when you don't want it too.

also comparing windows to xerox is stretching the truth, however i feel that the look was stollen from apple.

btw, where are your virtual desktops? i can have up to 16.

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Re:oh poppycock

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 11, 2003 01:28 AM
When I first started using windows along time ago, I used either the right click menu or from the edit menu. It was the edit menu that told me about Ctrl+C & Ctrl+V. How in the world would X let me know to use both mouse buttons at the same time? When I experimented with linux for several weeks, I had no clue it could do that and I am not just "Joe User".

As a developer I almost always am typing as opposed to mousing so for me, the Ctrl keys are much easier for me to use since I don't have to remove my hands from the KB. And even when I am mousing, I have my left hand on the kb so I can use many shortcut keys. Maybe on a laptop it is more difficult to access the shortcut keys, or maybe he needs his hand for *other* purposes.

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Re:oh poppycock

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 11, 2003 04:42 AM
Actually, most X documentation documents the three mouse buttons (you do have a real mouse, right?) as "select", "paste" and "copy". And if you're using X apps (as opposed to Windows ports), it's pretty much universal across apps.

For those of you unfortunate to have a PC two-button mouse, you can simulate the middle mouse button by clicking left and right buttons together. I feel sorry for you.

I can't begin to fathom what it must be like to use a single button Mac mouse with X applications.

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Re:oh poppycock

Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 11, 2003 02:00 AM
Just don't accidentally highlight something else! Otherwise, whatever's in the clipboard is obliterated.

This also means if you want to replace a block of text, you must also delete that block of text beforehand. Sounds like an extra step to me! I don't see why Linux wants me to go through that extra hand motion just to replace a block of text.

Of course, it's still to complain about either. A Linux user who is used to middle click will have problems in Windows, and a Windows user who is used to deliberately copy-pasting will experience frustration, too (I know I did).

I am not particularly enamored of Windows. I am a gamer, and 2k is my OS of choice because I dislike it less than every other operating system I've used (the key word here being "dislike"). It does what I want it to, and I don't routinely have to edit text files to configure it.

Nevertheless, I have a healthy enough respect for Linux that I've got a headless Debian box that I use for coding and storing files. Programming in Linux is a blast (I love make, and KDevelop is much cooler than Visual Studio). As soon as I get another monitor and keyboard, my Linux box will get significantly more love. And of course, as Microsoft attempts to encroach into my computer further, I plan to slowly move over to Linux as my main OS. I don't see anything else out there as a reasonable alternative.

But, as much as I like Linux and respect it as an OS, articles like these are precisely why I avoid discussing operating systems with Linux community _like the plague_, and more importantly, why I am not in the minority.

Most of these complaints are because the author seems determined to complain about even the slightest differences in UI management or operating system configuration, often without even bothering to do any research. (He knows Windows has some halfway decent online help, right?) I can't believe that the author has never had to research how to do something in Linux, especially when he was first using it, and I'm not sure why he doesn't give Windows the same latitutde.

The author's complaints strike me as very similar to the complaints I hear from users moving from Windows to Linux, and I know what the typical responses from Linux users are. If you voice a complaint about not knowing how to configure or install such and such, you're lambasted. Well, duh: you just go to this config file in this directory, scroll down to section X, change this option to that, and you're done! It's so easy! Well, once you know how to do it, that is.<nobr> <wbr></nobr>:P

I will not lambast him for not knowing a lot of the stuff he complains about, but I've used KDE before. It's not all _that_ different from Windows in terms of basic UI usage. I have a hard time believing that the author couldn't figure out that to add something to the quick launch bar: you drag an icon there. More than likely, he probably didn't bother to experiment, and threw up his hands at the slightest difference ("Darn you, Windows, you're just so arcane and confusing!").

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that an evaluation of Windows written by a Linux user wouldn't be in the least bit objective. Articles like these lead me to believe that it'll be a long time before the majorty of the Linux community grows up and realizes that:
  • Linux isn't right for everyone; and,
  • while Linux is great, Windows has some advantages over Linux.

    Cheers,
    - Tra'Hari, DONOTvandaette@SPAMyahoo.comDAMNYOU

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  • Re:oh poppycock

    Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 11, 2003 03:37 AM
    I don't see anything else out there as a reasonable alternative.


    There's always Apple. And you're more likely to get newer and/or better games for MacOS than Linux, anyway.

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    Re:Same Old Stuff

    Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 10, 2003 12:32 AM
    he may be a zealot for Linux, But not without good reason...

    i totally agree with him, M$FT WinXP is just refried Kludge...

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    Re:Same Old Stuff

    Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 10, 2003 01:06 AM
    Don't stop at M$FT. There's also MicroShaft, Windoze, and Winblows.

    Nothing proves a point better than making these types of hilarious substitutions.

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    Re:Same Old Stuff

    Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 11, 2003 02:37 PM
    Don't forget Microsloth and XPee! And WinBSODows

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    Re:Same Old Stuff

    Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 10, 2003 08:17 AM
    Actually, I thought a fair attempt at evaluation and comparison was given.

    Granted it is clear that Linux is preferred but I honestly feel the comment was constructive.

    *I* would have been totally negative as I find enormous frustration in having to use m$ for work when a UNIX/Linux environment would serve me better (most, but not all of the time). Thank goodness for Cygwin, and MinGW. Life with m$ becomes just bearable thanks to these tools.

    m$ have improved their products (perhaps because there is some form of competition now ?), but the underlying system design is appallingly bad, and will require major redesign to make secure. I still get memory leaks, and other problems on modern m$ stuff, so it's not *quality* software by a long shot.

    Compare this to the trusted penguin box. The software doesn't come with any glossy packaging that promises the earth; it just quietly installs and then runs for prolonged periods without problems. And with what restrictions ? That if I do see a need to modify software to suit my needs - would I be kind enough to circulate the mods for all to use - MOST CERTAINLY ! Especially as it is this form of development that has given *ME* the chance to use this wonderful system.

    So give me Linux. Oops - I must be a Linux zealot too !

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    Re:Same Old Stuff

    Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 11, 2003 12:39 AM
    You forgot to type M$ Wind0ze is teh ghay. Make sure to repeat it often, you'll eventually become an editor.

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    Re:Same Old Stuff

    Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 11, 2003 05:17 AM
    ah, your idea of software is something packed in a cereal box with promises of A Better Life printed over it.

    (nothing wrong with that attitude, if you like cereal boxes with promises printed on them)

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    Re:Same Old Stuff

    Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 11, 2003 05:32 AM
    Don't you mean boxen?

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    Re:Same Old Stuff

    Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 10, 2003 01:48 AM
    This is all too relative. I use more Windows then Linux and I HATE the clipboard in Linux. I prefer to use the mouse as little as possible, so the keys are more convenient to me. And *many times* have I copied something in a program in Linux and the other program refused to paste it. Sometimes I can do it, sometimes I can't and I don't know why. The result is that whenever I use the clipboard in Linux, I feel like I am carrying very fragile eggs, or something like that. I always paste what I just copied from the target program in the same target program to make sure the damn text was indeed copied and many time will invoke Kclip before pasting it to make sure the clipboard is still there. Such a nightmare.

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    Re:Same Old Stuff

    Posted by: Anonymous Coward on October 10, 2003 05:03 AM
    There is deffinitely some truth in this. Windows applications tend to use a more standardized Clipboard that Linux applications. I beleive this changed recently which, correct me here if I am wrong, KDE and Gnome have begun to work with Bonobo.

    Even